Luther identified the greatest danger to Christianity. Martin Luther
had one thing right. He said that to beleive in god required faith,
not reason. Reason, he said was the enemy of faith. which had to be
trampled underfoot.
Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being
she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed
whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under
foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to
make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She
would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in
the house, to the closets.
Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
It all a matter of choice, either live a life or rationality and
reason, or believe in god.
I choose reason. I will embrace the whore of the Devil, though she be
eaten by leprosy. I will bear her up to avoid the tramping feet of the
ignorant hoards of Christians and Moslems who have throughout history
tried to suppress her. If she bears scabs and is wretched it is
because of the indignities and wounds she has suffered from the blind
stupidity of Abrahamic faith.
The concepts of god and the practices of religion will not and cannot
submit to reason. All the rituals are unreasonable, the beliefs
unconscionable; the basis without evidence. Faith bolsters the
infantile and tragic delusion that the majority of humans suffer
under.
> Luther identified the greatest danger to Christianity. Martin Luther
> had one thing right. He said that to beleive in god required faith,
> not reason. Reason, he said was the enemy of faith. which had to be
> trampled underfoot.
> Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being
> she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed
> whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under
> foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to
> make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She
> would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in
> the house, to the closets.
> Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
> It all a matter of choice, either live a life or rationality and
> reason, or believe in god.
> I choose reason. I will embrace the whore of the Devil, though she be
> eaten by leprosy. I will bear her up to avoid the tramping feet of the
> ignorant hoards of Christians and Moslems who have throughout history
> tried to suppress her. If she bears scabs and is wretched it is
> because of the indignities and wounds she has suffered from the blind
> stupidity of Abrahamic faith.
> The concepts of god and the practices of religion will not and cannot
> submit to reason. All the rituals are unreasonable, the beliefs
> unconscionable; the basis without evidence. Faith bolsters the
> infantile and tragic delusion that the majority of humans suffer
> under.
Isn't this really another blanket ad hominem against a lot of
people? Luther apparently chose faith over the whore. I wonder why.
It is for those very reasons that I demand that 'God' be defined
through a reasoned approach. It may not be easy, but, once done, we
have something worth discussing.
It is the same type of crap that Falwell and the Fundies put out except from the opposite side.
"Faith vs Reason. One or the other. You can't have both."
To post this quote.......which btw is making the rounds on the atheist boards, and I wonder if Chaz has read the entire Erlangen Edition......on this board, where there are few if any fundamentalist theists, is simply flaming, and I'm not going to "bite" either.
You, Vam, Craig, me and others on this board all subscribe to "reasoned" thought.
NONE of us would agree with Luther IF what he meant was that reason is NEVER appropriate to living.......which I doubt very much it was.
> Luther identified the greatest danger to Christianity. Martin Luther
> had one thing right. He said that to beleive in god required faith,
> not reason. Reason, he said was the enemy of faith. which had to be
> trampled underfoot.
> Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being
> she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed
> whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under
> foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to
> make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She
> would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in
> the house, to the closets.
> Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
> It all a matter of choice, either live a life or rationality and
> reason, or believe in god.
> I choose reason. I will embrace the whore of the Devil, though she be
> eaten by leprosy. I will bear her up to avoid the tramping feet of the
> ignorant hoards of Christians and Moslems who have throughout history
> tried to suppress her. If she bears scabs and is wretched it is
> because of the indignities and wounds she has suffered from the blind
> stupidity of Abrahamic faith.
> The concepts of god and the practices of religion will not and cannot
> submit to reason. All the rituals are unreasonable, the beliefs
> unconscionable; the basis without evidence. Faith bolsters the
> infantile and tragic delusion that the majority of humans suffer
> under.
Isn't this really another blanket ad hominem against a lot of
people? Luther apparently chose faith over the whore. I wonder why.
It is for those very reasons that I demand that 'God' be defined
through a reasoned approach. It may not be easy, but, once done, we
have something worth discussing.
"You can't smell the roses while holding your nose!" - Pottsie
Believers come in all sorts of sizes, shapes and professions.
"I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei
I wonder if Galileo believed in God TOTALLY on reason?????
or Einstein????? or Newton?????
That, of course, is not to impugn Galileo. He simply is a man that sees that reason AND faith are needed in life.
The argument regarding Faith vs Reason is an argument for the atheist and the Fundamentalist to have fun with.
Both of them are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Namaste
Pottsie
"You can't smell the roses while holding your nose!" - Pottsie
On Jul 19, 8:24 pm, Pottsie <pottsie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Of course it is, Pat.
> It is the same type of crap that Falwell and the Fundies put out except from the opposite side.
> "Faith vs Reason. One or the other. You can't have both."
> To post this quote.......which btw is making the rounds on the atheist boards, and I wonder if Chaz has read the entire Erlangen Edition......on this board, where there are few if any fundamentalist theists, is simply flaming, and I'm not going to "bite" either.
Chaz posted this on alt.philosophy as well. And, of course, Chaz
has notched up 3/4 as many posts on Atheism vs. Christianity as he has
here. In fact, he posted this as a response to a thread titled, "Why
offending Christians is not a moral imperative". Apparently, he feels
it is. Why do I have the words "I see your true colours shining
through..." going through my head. ;-)
> > Luther identified the greatest danger to Christianity. Martin Luther
> > had one thing right. He said that to beleive in god required faith,
> > not reason. Reason, he said was the enemy of faith. which had to be
> > trampled underfoot.
> > Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being
> > she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed
> > whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under
> > foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to
> > make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She
> > would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in
> > the house, to the closets.
> > Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
> > It all a matter of choice, either live a life or rationality and
> > reason, or believe in god.
> > I choose reason. I will embrace the whore of the Devil, though she be
> > eaten by leprosy. I will bear her up to avoid the tramping feet of the
> > ignorant hoards of Christians and Moslems who have throughout history
> > tried to suppress her. If she bears scabs and is wretched it is
> > because of the indignities and wounds she has suffered from the blind
> > stupidity of Abrahamic faith.
> > The concepts of god and the practices of religion will not and cannot
> > submit to reason. All the rituals are unreasonable, the beliefs
> > unconscionable; the basis without evidence. Faith bolsters the
> > infantile and tragic delusion that the majority of humans suffer
> > under.
> Isn't this really another blanket ad hominem against a lot of
> people? Luther apparently chose faith over the whore. I wonder why.
> It is for those very reasons that I demand that 'God' be defined
> through a reasoned approach. It may not be easy, but, once done, we
> have something worth discussing.
> "You can't smell the roses while holding your nose!" - Pottsie- Hide quoted text -
"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must
assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent
Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." - Max Planck
Planck's ASSUMPTION is nothing other than Faith. He ASSUMES that the
force behind existence is a conscious and intelligent Mind. The
minute he acts upon that assumption, he has taken a leap of faith.
Hopefully, he will take REASONED action. The Faith and the Reason are
NOT mutually exclusive. Nor does having one mean that an individual
doesn't have the other.
The argument re Faith vs Reason is a dead horse.
Oh, and add Planck to the list of Newton, Galileo, and Einstein.
Certainly a more prestigious lot than Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris,
what?
Namaste
Pottsie
On Jul 19, 4:20 pm, Pottsie <pottsie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Believers come in all sorts of sizes, shapes and professions.
> "I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
> -Galileo Galilei
> I wonder if Galileo believed in God TOTALLY on reason?????
> or Einstein????? or Newton?????
> That, of course, is not to impugn Galileo. He simply is a man that sees that reason AND faith are needed in life.
> The argument regarding Faith vs Reason is an argument for the atheist and the Fundamentalist to have fun with.
> Both of them are arguing for the sake of arguing.
> Namaste
> Pottsie
> "You can't smell the roses while holding your nose!" - Pottsie
Just another little ditty from Planck that I found while trying to
find the other quote:
"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind
realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science
are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the
scientist cannot dispense with." - Max Planck
God, I knew that Planck was a Theist, but I never knew he held such thoughtful beliefs or that he was as outspoken.
It's pretty common knowledge that Einstein's belief infuriated some of his collegues, but it looks as if Planck was right up there with him.
The typical response you get when you bring up Newton or Galileo's belief is "Oh, well.......they lived before the Age of Reason." Not so with Max and Albert! :)
Catch this one I just came across! I can see Dawkins choking on his hot dog right now! "Tut, tut, ahem, bluster, bluster.........um......let's get back to bashing the easy Fundamentalist Targets!" ;)
"Under these conditions it is no wonder, that the movement of atheists, which declares religion to be just a deliberate illusion, invented by power-seeking priests, and which has for the pious belief in a higher Power nothing but words of mockery, eagerly makes use of progressive scientific knowledge and in a presumed unity with it, expands in an ever faster pace its disintegrating action on all nations of the earth and on all social levels. I do not need to explain in any more detail that after its victory not only all the most precious treasures of our culture would vanish, but – which is even worse – also any prospects at a better future."
Max Planck - Religion und Naturwissenschaft (Leipzig, 1958)
This quote looks like it might have been directed at Sam Harris who believes that atheists' biggest challege is to stop fighting the idea of Theism and expose faulty thinking (paraphrased). That way Theism will just die out...... (from an edited transcript of a talk given at the Atheist Alliance conference in Washington D.C. on September 28th, 2007)
and as Planck would probably say......to our loss.
You know, now that I think about it.......one of the things that Atheists always bring up is the horrible catastrophes visited upon humanity in the name of Religion. How come we never hear them criticize the fantastic Art and Music which is created by the pious? How come we never hear them criticize the medical and food care sent in the name of God to less fortunate people in less fortunate countries?
A great deal of the time you will hear them say that the vast majority of wars have been fought in the name of religion........conveniently leaving out Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot.......all atheistic in outlook.
I might change my mind when I see an organization with the name "Atheists' Relief Fund" offloading tons of food in Indonesia after a Tsunami.
Namaste
Pottsie
"You can't smell the roses while holding your nose!" - Pottsie
> God, I knew that Planck was a Theist, but I never knew he held such thoughtful beliefs or that he was as outspoken.
> It's pretty common knowledge that Einstein's belief infuriated some of his collegues, but it looks as if Planck was right up there with him.
> The typical response you get when you bring up Newton or Galileo's belief is "Oh, well.......they lived before the Age of Reason." Not so with Max and Albert! :)
> Catch this one I just came across! I can see Dawkins choking on his hot dog right now! "Tut, tut, ahem, bluster, bluster.........um......let's get back to bashing the easy Fundamentalist Targets!" ;)
> "Under these conditions it is no wonder, that the movement of atheists, which declares religion to be just a deliberate illusion, invented by power-seeking priests, and which has for the pious belief in a higher Power nothing but words of mockery, eagerly makes use of progressive scientific knowledge and in a presumed unity with it, expands in an ever faster pace its disintegrating action on all nations of the earth and on all social levels. I do not need to explain in any more detail that after its victory not only all the most precious treasures of our culture would vanish, but – which is even worse – also any prospects at a better future."
> Max Planck - Religion und Naturwissenschaft (Leipzig, 1958)
> This quote looks like it might have been directed at Sam Harris who believes that atheists' biggest challege is to stop fighting the idea of Theism and expose faulty thinking (paraphrased). That way Theism will just die out...... (from an edited transcript of a talk given at the Atheist Alliance conference in Washington D.C. on September 28th, 2007)
> and as Planck would probably say......to our loss.
> You know, now that I think about it.......one of the things that Atheists always bring up is the horrible catastrophes visited upon humanity in the name of Religion. How come we never hear them criticize the fantastic Art and Music which is created by the pious? How come we never hear them criticize the medical and food care sent in the name of God to less fortunate people in less fortunate countries?
> A great deal of the time you will hear them say that the vast majority of wars have been fought in the name of religion........conveniently leaving out Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot.......all atheistic in outlook.
> I might change my mind when I see an organization with the name "Atheists' Relief Fund" offloading tons of food in Indonesia after a Tsunami.
And it's Planck and Einstein whose work most influenced my
search. And, of course, Brian Greene.
"The universe is incredibly wondrous, incredibly beautiful, and it
fills me with a sense that there is some underlying explanation that
we have yet to fully understand. If someone wants to place the word
God on those collections of words, it's OK with me."
-Brian Greene-
> "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must
> assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent
> Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." - Max Planck
> Planck's ASSUMPTION is nothing other than Faith. He ASSUMES that the
> force behind existence is a conscious and intelligent Mind. The
> minute he acts upon that assumption, he has taken a leap of faith.
> Hopefully, he will take REASONED action. The Faith and the Reason are
> NOT mutually exclusive. Nor does having one mean that an individual
> doesn't have the other.
> The argument re Faith vs Reason is a dead horse.
> Oh, and add Planck to the list of Newton, Galileo, and Einstein.
> Certainly a more prestigious lot than Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris,
> what?
> Namaste
> Pottsie
> On Jul 19, 4:20 pm, Pottsie <pottsie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Believers come in all sorts of sizes, shapes and professions.
> > "I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reasons, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
>
