Just saw a commercial for the Powersave 1200, which will save you hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted and designed specifically for residential customers.
The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens, stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air conditioners, and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as well). It also filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power lines.
It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to actually heat something. So throw away those fans on your computer!
Fascinating stuff. It's UL tested and listed, and has been "recognized by the Department of Energy". They even have a report on their web site. It sure looks like it's from the DOE. Oh, it was a "Program of the DOE", but the actual report was written by the Motor Challenge Information Clearinghouse, with a website www.motor.doe.gov that, while having an .gov on the end, does not seem to exist. Or the US government's computers are all down. (they aren't)
Anyway, there's also a "university study" of this device. Except that it's two "PHD's" in the electrical engineering department of Santa Clara University. One is a part timer, the other is a study-for-hire type. It's a 10 page report, by two PHD's, from a university, but there's no notes, biblio, or anything to show that it wasn't cobbled together in 20 minutes off the cuff. And it doesn't even mention this device by name. But hey, it's a study.
Funny thing about the FAQ's. They know how much the unit costs, they know how long it'll take to pay for itself (6 to 12 months), but when asked how much money folks can save every month, a long list follows "it depends on".
I'm not a huge math guy, but it can't be that tough. Maybe they can tap one of those PHD's to figure it out.
My question is this;
Is this bullshit, baloney, flim flam, or snake oil?
No doubt it must do something. Heck, it might just do some of the stuff it claims. But while they commercial claims power plants "can" charge for low power factors, they forget to mention that this applies almost exclusively to the industrial and commercial sectors. Residential customers rarely, if ever, generate a low enough power factor to be noticed by power plants.
I expect a certain amount of dumbing down in commercials when dealing with technical stuff, but this seems to be a collection of outright lies.
Anyway, I was wondering if this was just a grossly overpriced capacitor, and if it can significantly alter a sine wave.
In article <139084nmvpun...@corp.supernews.com>, idontw...@fcc.gov says...
> Just saw a commercial for the Powersave 1200, which will save you hundreds, > if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted and designed > specifically for residential customers.
Save you "thousands"? What if you don't pay "thousands"?
> The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for > advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
Nobody ever lies on TV, right? The commercial is on the SciFi network, assume it is also SciFi. ;-)
> So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your > appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens, > stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air conditioners, > and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as well). It also > filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power lines.
Well, you don't want your coffee to taste of stale electricity, do you?
> It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are > receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your > appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to > actually heat something. So throw away those fans on your computer!
Ah, the laws of thermodynamics has been repealed, at last!
> Fascinating stuff. It's UL tested and listed, and has been "recognized by > the Department of Energy". They even have a report on their web site. It > sure looks like it's from the DOE. Oh, it was a "Program of the DOE", but > the actual report was written by the Motor Challenge Information > Clearinghouse, with a website www.motor.doe.gov that, while having an .gov > on the end, does not seem to exist. Or the US government's computers are > all down. (they aren't)
UL doesn't certify efficacy. If the certification is real (doubt this) it only means that it shouldn't catch fire or electrocute someone while being used as designed.
> Anyway, there's also a "university study" of this device. Except that it's > two "PHD's" in the electrical engineering department of Santa Clara > University. One is a part timer, the other is a study-for-hire type. It's > a 10 page report, by two PHD's, from a university, but there's no notes, > biblio, or anything to show that it wasn't cobbled together in 20 minutes > off the cuff. And it doesn't even mention this device by name. But hey, > it's a study.
THey find doctors to say that diet pills work too. Well, if that's all you eat...
> It's only $300. Plus shipping and handling.
Crap! Demand free S&H! These charges are always bogus! ;-)
> Funny thing about the FAQ's. They know how much the unit costs, they know > how long it'll take to pay for itself (6 to 12 months), but when asked how > much money folks can save every month, a long list follows "it depends on".
Nor what you pay for electricity... Hmm, sounds like a constant dollar source. I wonder if the Fed knows about this?
> I'm not a huge math guy, but it can't be that tough. Maybe they can tap one > of those PHD's to figure it out.
Maybe they better buy off a guy from the math department at that great educational institution too.
> My question is this;
> Is this bullshit, baloney, flim flam, or snake oil?
Yes, yes, yes, and most certainly.
> No doubt it must do something.
It'll heat the room. Contrary to what they say, thermodynamics is alive and well.
> Heck, it might just do some of the stuff it > claims. But while they commercial claims power plants "can" charge for low > power factors, they forget to mention that this applies almost exclusively > to the industrial and commercial sectors. Residential customers rarely, if > ever, generate a low enough power factor to be noticed by power plants.
Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US. The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your internal home wiring due to reactive current.
> I expect a certain amount of dumbing down in commercials when dealing with > technical stuff, but this seems to be a collection of outright lies.
Lies in a commercial, what a concept!
> Anyway, I was wondering if this was just a grossly overpriced capacitor, and > if it can significantly alter a sine wave.
Don't forget the pilot light, telling you that it's on the job, saving you *thousands*. ...and for "only" $300...
On 7/7/07 4:55 PM, in article MPG.20f9f1515775afbe98a...@news.individual.net, "krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US. > The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your > internal home wiring due to reactive current.
I tried mining Their faq to find out how the device works. I could not.
It is true, we get charged for actual energy consumed on our side of the meter. That includes extra heating of the conductors outside the appliance. It is not clear to me how this device knows how much correction is required for the various devices under various loads. I also agree, that if there is extra current flow in the appliance, it is difficult to understand how that waste energy can be reduced by this device.
I also have to include that this is a scam.
Bill -- Support the troops. Impeach Bush. Oh, I forgot about Cheney.
These types of systems have been used in industry in the UK for many years successfully. This is the first system I have seen aimed at the domestic market, these types of system work well, particularly where you have a large inductive load (electric motors). Electric motors used in washers, fans, air-condition units etc all operate with a low power factor when running with a low load, by using an automatic power factor correction system, you improve the power factor and thus reduce the amps drawn from the supply. A great idea.
In article <Vl7ki.15820$uR5.8...@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, bi...@abc.net says...
> These types of systems have been used in industry in the UK for many years > successfully. > This is the first system I have seen aimed at the domestic market, these > types of system work well, particularly where you have a large inductive > load (electric motors). > Electric motors used in washers, fans, air-condition units etc all operate > with a low power factor when running with a low load, by using an automatic > power factor correction system, you improve the power factor and thus reduce > the amps drawn from the supply.
Who cares? Most motors run close to rated load (where PF is close to unity). ...not that it matters because PF simply isn't an issue for the homeowner.
> A great idea.
I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't exist otherwise.
> I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't > exist otherwise.
From a "scam" view, this gadget (and its relatives) have taken in a lot of folks.
Over 30 years ago, Exxon (the big US oil company) started to buy a small company that had "invented" such an energy saver. It was the same basic idea: reduce the voltage to reduce the "reactive" current. A "chip" monitored things so that the voltage would continually seek the optimum point of minimum current. The hype was the same: it would make a giant difference in energy consumption. The reality to most EEs that if it worked it might save "a little."
Anyway, Exxon was willing to buy the company. The critics of Exxon claimed that Exxon wasn't making an investment but was trying to keep energy saving stuff off the market (like the 100 mpg carburetor!). Obviously, the BIG OIL critics got just as carried away as the managers at Exxon.
I think I have seen it on display at some hardware stores once or twice in the years between then and now.
The "scam" part is the excessive claims. The basic idea works but only saves some I^2*R loses in slightly loaded induction motors.
Salmon Egg wrote: > On 7/7/07 4:55 PM, in article > MPG.20f9f1515775afbe98a...@news.individual.net, "krw" <k...@att.bizzzz> > wrote:
>> Residential customers are *not* charged for PF, at least in the US. >> The only claim they could weasel around is the heating of your >> internal home wiring due to reactive current.
> I tried mining Their faq to find out how the device works. I could not.
> It is true, we get charged for actual energy consumed on our side of the > meter. That includes extra heating of the conductors outside the appliance. > It is not clear to me how this device knows how much correction is required > for the various devices under various loads. I also agree, that if there is > extra current flow in the appliance, it is difficult to understand how that > waste energy can be reduced by this device.
Correcting power factor on industrial is a good idea, as BillB alludes to, because industrial users pay a big penalty for reactive power. I agree with Bill above - US residential users do not - no advantage.
Low power factor increases the current which increases the I2R losses in wires. The only wires corrected are from the meter to the correction point - the panel (and the service neutral?). Negligible distance, negligible saving.
It would be rather hard to improve the power factor of water heaters, heaters, coffee makers, toasters.
In the patent application, the power factor correction is set with switches (fixed). The reactive load cycles, so some of the time there is over correction increasing the I2R losses.
Do they claim the metered power will go down when the current goes down (confusing power and VA)? I don't remember but I wouldn't be surprised.
In article <j6ednZyTsemzMQzbnZ2dnUVZ_jWdn...@nni.com>, gil...@nni.com says...
> > I suppose someone has to think SCAMS are great ideas. They wouldn't > > exist otherwise.
> From a "scam" view, this gadget (and its relatives) have taken in a lot of > folks.
Yep, my brother was one. He invested his life savings in a company selling these things. He should have known better. He was a an EE and power company exec. No one in the family listened to me, a lowly EE student at the time.
> Over 30 years ago, Exxon (the big US oil company) started to buy a small > company that had "invented" such an energy saver. It was the same basic > idea: reduce the voltage to reduce the "reactive" current. A "chip" > monitored things so that the voltage would continually seek the optimum > point of minimum current. The hype was the same: it would make a giant > difference in energy consumption. The reality to most EEs that if it > worked it might save "a little."
Yep, again. The above happened in the early '70s.
> Anyway, Exxon was willing to buy the company. The critics of Exxon claimed > that Exxon wasn't making an investment but was trying to keep energy saving > stuff off the market (like the 100 mpg carburetor!). Obviously, the BIG > OIL critics got just as carried away as the managers at Exxon.
;-)
> I think I have seen it on display at some hardware stores once or twice in > the years between then and now.
Yes, and I've seen some rigged demos when they show up too.
> The "scam" part is the excessive claims. The basic idea works but only > saves some I^2*R loses in slightly loaded induction motors.
How many lightly loaded induction motors are there out there and how much energy are they using? Remember, they're lightly loaded. ;-)
These black boxes contain capacitors to improve the power factors. But the one who benefit from it is ONLY the power co. that supply the electric power. The total electric power consumed in a home is made of two components; the real power and the reactive power. In the USA the consumers pay ONLY for the real power portion. Now, for industrial/commercial users, it is different. To the electric Co. that generate the electric power, the reactive power cost less then 5% of the real power . . . . .
20-30 years ago, when these scams started, I was interviewed on TV on the subject and, as a result, one of those company had to close down and filed for bankruptcy . . . .
The power factor is less then perfect (or one), only on loads that have a motor, like a washing machine, etc . . . and the overall load on a residential house is not bad to begin with . . . . but still the electric co. are greedy and happy to see the public fooled!!
> Just saw a commercial for the Powersave 1200, which will save you > hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted > and designed specifically for residential customers.
> The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for > advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
> So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your > appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens, > stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air > conditioners, and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as > well). It also filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power > lines.
> It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are > receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your > appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to > actually heat something. So throw away those fans on your computer!
> Fascinating stuff. It's UL tested and listed, and has been "recognized by > the Department of Energy". They even have a report on their web site. It > sure looks like it's from the DOE. Oh, it was a "Program of the DOE", but > the actual report was written by the Motor Challenge Information > Clearinghouse, with a website www.motor.doe.gov that, while having an .gov > on the end, does not seem to exist. Or the US government's computers are > all down. (they aren't)
> Anyway, there's also a "university study" of this device. Except that > it's two "PHD's" in the electrical engineering department of Santa Clara > University. One is a part timer, the other is a study-for-hire type. > It's a 10 page report, by two PHD's, from a university, but there's no > notes, biblio, or anything to show that it wasn't cobbled together in 20 > minutes off the cuff. And it doesn't even mention this device by name. > But hey, it's a study.
> Funny thing about the FAQ's. They know how much the unit costs, they know > how long it'll take to pay for itself (6 to 12 months), but when asked how > much money folks can save every month, a long list follows "it depends > on".
> I'm not a huge math guy, but it can't be that tough. Maybe they can tap > one of those PHD's to figure it out.
> My question is this;
> Is this bullshit, baloney, flim flam, or snake oil?
> No doubt it must do something. Heck, it might just do some of the stuff > it claims. But while they commercial claims power plants "can" charge for > low power factors, they forget to mention that this applies almost > exclusively to the industrial and commercial sectors. Residential > customers rarely, if ever, generate a low enough power factor to be > noticed by power plants.
> I expect a certain amount of dumbing down in commercials when dealing with > technical stuff, but this seems to be a collection of outright lies.
> Anyway, I was wondering if this was just a grossly overpriced capacitor, > and if it can significantly alter a sine wave.
I was going to post something similar regarding a different company which sells such a product. Was searching this newsgroup when I ran across this thread.
First of all, I understand the skepticism. There is far too much nonsense out there.But I am surprised at the outright dismissals made without more thorough investigation.
Let me provide a few places people can go to do further research:
Although the documents are not in public areas of any of the links I have given, I AM in possession of studies from the US Department of Energy, University of Santa Clara, NASA, and Honeywell.. Contact me via the contact form at http://www.electricpowersave.com/Contact.html and I will arrange to e-mail copies to you.
Are there scams out there? Absolutely
Is this worth further research, if it really can promise electric bill reductions of 10-20% That's for you to decide
Is this for everyone? No.... it only makes economic sense if your bill is over $150 per month, maybe more.
news:139084nmvpun2d1@corp.supernews.com... Just saw a commercial for the Powersave 1200, which will save you hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in energy bills. It is targeted and designed specifically for residential customers.
The commercial appeared on the Sci Fi channel, which is well known for advertisements from reputable companies. yeah
So it hooks to your breaker box, reduces the power factor of all your appliances (including, according to the commercial, TV's, heaters, ovens, stoves, dishwashers, microwaves, water heaters, toasters, air conditioners, and coffee makers (implies your coffee will taste better as well). It also filters and recycles the excess electricity in your power lines.
It also cools down TV's, because they, like your other appliances, are receiving too much power. This device only supplies the power your appliances require, so there will be no heat in anything not designed to actually heat something. So throw a
