> Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Michael Stemper wrote:
>>> In article <proto-BAC955.08530408102...@news.panix.com>, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes:
>>>> In article <de7d5d47-7016-4560-ac02-4eea46bdf...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, TB <tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> IIRC, Jesus once told people to "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's
>>>>> (taxes) and render onto God what is God's", implying that taxes are
>>>>> separate from God.
>>>> I think that Jesus was saying that one shouldn't pay taxes, because
>>>> everything belongs to God.
>>> No, because the money, which had an image of Caeser on it, was a
>>> violation of the "no graven images" statute. Saying "render unto
>>> Caeser what is Caeser's" while holding up an image of Caeser isn't
>>> very easy to interpret as meaning the exact opposite.

>> Nothing to do with graven images, and Walter Bushell was quite wrong
>> too. This is the Mark version:

>>   14And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that
>> thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person
>> of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give
>> tribute to Caesar, or not?

>>   15Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their
>> hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may
>> see it.

>>   16And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and
>> superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

>>   17And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that
>> are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled
>> at him.

>> Some of J's supporters, including Judas, thought he was going to be the
>> leader of a new anti-Roman revolution, and in the quote above, his
>> enemies are trying to get him to admit this so they can denounce him.
>> All he says is that this coin has the Caesar's picture on it, so coins
>> are a government matter and taxes must be paid. In other words, no
>> withholding of taxes, no rebellion, because religion is a separate
>> matter from who is in government.

> How then could Christians later justify making Christianity the state religion?

> Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Some of J's supporters, including Judas, thought he was going to be the
>> leader of a new anti-Roman revolution, and in the quote above, his
>> enemies are trying to get him to admit this so they can denounce him.
>> All he says is that this coin has the Caesar's picture on it, so coins
>> are a government matter and taxes must be paid. In other words, no
>> withholding of taxes, no rebellion, because religion is a separate
>> matter from who is in government.

> How then could Christians later justify making Christianity the state religion?

>> Robert Bannister wrote:

>>> Michael Stemper wrote:
>>>> In article <proto-BAC955.08530408102...@news.panix.com>, Walter Bushell
>>>> <pr...@panix.com> writes:
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <de7d5d47-7016-4560-ac02-4eea46bdf...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> TB <tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>> IIRC, Jesus once told people to "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's
>>>>>> (taxes) and render onto God what is God's", implying that taxes are
>>>>>> separate from God.
>>>>> I think that Jesus was saying that one shouldn't pay taxes, because
>>>>> everything belongs to God.
>>>> No, because the money, which had an image of Caeser on it, was a
>>>> violation of the "no graven images" statute. Saying "render unto
>>>> Caeser what is Caeser's" while holding up an image of Caeser isn't
>>>> very easy to interpret as meaning the exact opposite.

>>> Nothing to do with graven images, and Walter Bushell was quite wrong
>>> too. This is the Mark version:

>>>   14And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that
>>> thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person
>>> of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give
>>> tribute to Caesar, or not?

>>>   15Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their
>>> hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may
>>> see it.

>>>   16And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and
>>> superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

>>>   17And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that
>>> are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled
>>> at him.

>>> Some of J's supporters, including Judas, thought he was going to be the
>>> leader of a new anti-Roman revolution, and in the quote above, his
>>> enemies are trying to get him to admit this so they can denounce him.
>>> All he says is that this coin has the Caesar's picture on it, so coins
>>> are a government matter and taxes must be paid. In other words, no
>>> withholding of taxes, no rebellion, because religion is a separate
>>> matter from who is in government.

>> How then could Christians later justify making Christianity the state
>> religion?

> It had already started going wrong before that. Once you've got priests,
> you've got a business.

> > Well, assuming that God _does_ exist, for the sake of argument, if
> > he _did_ convince me of his existence, I'd be tempted to ask why
> > _he_ didn't just do it.

> > He's the omnipotent one, after all.

> How _could_ God convince someone of his existence, excepting via
> direct manipulation of the person's mind?

> That is, how could any entity that possessed apparent godlike powers
> prove that it was _God_ and not an impersonator?  What proof would
> be sufficient, or even possible?

> -- wds

>> >Arthur wrote:
>> >> On Oct 3, 2:00 am, TB <tsbru...@dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >>> If God warned you of a coming flood, told you to build an Ark, and
>> >>> told you to fill it with two of each kind of animal, how would you
>> >>> proceed?

>> >> I'd make sure the unicorns got on.

>> >    No kidding.  How do you manage to corral the whales, and miss the
>> >unicorns?

>> Now here's a real genius of the breunian movement ...

>> The ark was for a FLOOD.

>> A FLOOD is water.

>> Whales live in WATER !

>> Why the everloving crap would you haul water creatures into a dry area of
>> a
>> floating contraption to 'save' them?

> But their food supply might be disrupted by the Flood on account of
> the salt water being diluted, so they would need saving.

>> >In "Evan Almighty", Congressman Evan Baxter is directed by God to
>> >build an Ark.  God arranged for the necessary wood and tools to be
>> >delivered to Evan, and arranged to use Evan's funds to buy eight lots
>> >so that there would be room for the Ark.  The animals that arrived to
>> >board the Ark helped Evan build it.

>> I would ask God why he is breaking his promise: Genesis 8: 21- 22.

> God: This time, only a small neighborhood will be flooded.  A poorly
> built dam will break just above this exclusive suburb.

> I'd seek medical help from a mental health professional, as I'm too old
> to believe in fairy tales.

>> <david.robot.mitch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:00:04 -0700, TB wrote:
>> > > If God warned you of a coming flood, told you to build an Ark, and
>> > > told
>> > > you to fill it with two of each kind of animal, how would you
>> > > proceed?

>> > I'd seek medical help from a mental health professional, as I'm too old
>> > to believe in fairy tales.

>> Be that as it may, laying your current rationality to the side for
>> puposes of actually answering the question;

>> if God told you build an Ark, you'd get to building. Whether there
>> really _is_ a God or not is besides the point.

> To raise the necessary funds, I would set up a web site: www.ark.com
> to appeal for donations.

> I would set up an Ark Blog, and make Ark tweets.

> If the police tried to demolish my Ark, I would tell my bird friends
> to dive bomb them.

> How does God establish his bona-fides?

> : Whether there really _is_ a God or not is besides the point.

> No, it's exactly the point, or at least *a* point that comes
> before any of the others.  Why should I do what this "God" person
> tells me to do?  If it's "to escape the flood", then why do I think
> his orders will be effective?

> ::: If the police tried to destroy your Ark, how would you stop them?

> Presuming for a moment that this "God" person has established his
> trustworthiness, and I'm proceeding with the project, and also presuming
> God hadn't already told me how to handle such contingencies, I'd seek
> his advice.  If he didn't give it in an answer in an intelligable form,
> I probably *wouldn't* stop the police; it's very likely I'd be unable
> to in any event.  Hey, does God want this project to succeed or not?

> ::: How would you explain to the public the need to build the Ark?

> See above.

>> ::: If the police tried to destroy your Ark, how would you stop them?

>> Presuming for a moment that this "God" person has established his
>> trustworthiness, and I'm proceeding with the project, and also presuming
>> God hadn't already told me how to handle such contingencies, I'd seek
>> his advice.  If he didn't give it in an answer in an intelligable form,
>> I probably *wouldn't* stop the police; it's very likely I'd be unable
>> to in any event.  Hey, does God want this project to succeed or not?

> I would simply send out my lions, tigers, bears (oh my!), leopards,
> cheetahs, elephants, wolves, hyenas, snakes, and other fierce looking
> animals to scare off the police!

>>>> In "Evan Almighty", Congressman Evan Baxter is directed by God to
>>>> build an Ark.  God arranged for the necessary wood and tools to be
>>>> delivered to Evan, and arranged to use Evan's funds to buy eight lots
>>>> so that there would be room for the Ark.  The animals that arrived to
>>>> board the Ark helped Evan build it.
>>> I would ask God why he is breaking his promise: Genesis 8: 21- 22.

>> God: This time, only a small neighborhood will be flooded.  A poorly
>> built dam will break just above this exclusive suburb.

>    Then why on earth would I need a freakin ark?

>  A rowboat would do it, or better yet, load up the damn pets and drive to
> the next neighborhood over.

>   For that matter, get a big storage unit and empty the house too, so your
> computer stays safe.

>  Buy flood insurance so that your house isn't a loss.

>> >On Oct 3, 12:22 am, David Mitchell
>> ><david.robot.mitch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:00:04 -0700, TB wrote:
>> >> > If God warned you of a coming flood, told you to build an Ark, and
>> >> > told
>> >> > you to fill it with two of each kind of animal, how would you
>> >> > proceed?

>> >> I'd seek medical help from a mental health professional, as I'm too
>> >> old
>> >> to believe in fairy tales.

>> >Be that as it may, laying your current rationality to the side for
>> >puposes of actually answering the question;

>> >if God told you build an Ark, you'd get to building. Whether there
>> >really _is_ a God or not is besides the point.

>> Good ... GO ROB A BANK ... GOD HATH SPOKEN!

> But robbing a bank is illegal.  Building an Ark is not illegal.

>> >>> In "Evan Almighty", Congressman Evan Baxter is directed by God to
>> >>> build an Ark.  God arranged for the necessary wood and tools to be
>> >>> delivered to Evan, and arranged to use Evan's funds to buy eight lots
>> >>> so that there would be room for the Ark.  The animals that arrived to
>> >>> board the Ark helped Evan build it.
>> >> I would ask God why he is breaking his promise: Genesis 8: 21- 22.

>> > God: This time, only a small neighborhood will be flooded.  A poorly
>> > built dam will break just above this exclusive suburb.

>>     Then why on earth would I need a freakin ark?

>>   A rowboat would do it, or better yet, load up the damn pets and drive
>> to the next neighborhood over.

>>    For that matter, get a big storage unit and empty the house too, so
>> your computer stays safe.

>>   Buy flood insurance so that your house isn't a loss.

> God: Okay, I'll wash out an entire state!

>> > If God warned you of a coming flood, told you to build an Ark, and
>> > told you to fill it with two of each kind of animal, how would you
>> > proceed?  How would you finance the Ark, and gather the needed
>> > supplies and labor force?

>> > If the police tried to destroy your Ark, how would you stop them?

>> > How would you explain to the public the need to build the Ark?

>> > In "Evan Almighty", Congressman Evan Baxter is directed by God to
>> > build an Ark.  God arranged for the necessary wood and tools to be
>> > delivered to Evan, and arranged to use Evan's funds to buy eight lots
>> > so that there would be room for the Ark.  The animals that arrived to
>> > board the Ark helped Evan build it.

>> Right.

>> What's an Ark?

> A very big boat.  Read Genesis 6:14 on forward for more details.

>> >On Oct 5, 9:43 am, pmfan57 <jwrag...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> Right.

>> >> What's an Ark?

>> >A very big boat.  Read Genesis 6:14 on forward for more details.

>> Actually, it means a container to keep something safe.  Noah's boat
>> fits that description, obviously, but so does the Ark of the Covenent,
>> which is not a boat.

> Can I call a jar of jelly an "Ark"?

>> >> Perhaps he had extra waters left over from when the waters were
>> >> divided from
>> >> the waters, and this was easier than continuing to carry them in
>> >> inventory
>> >> and having to measure them every year for tax purposes.

>> >Why would God need to pay taxes?

>> Why would HE be immune? Render unto Caesar and all that.

>> (Honestly, it's like you've never even TRIED to think about a lot of the
>> stuff
>> you should have learned in elementary school.)

> I don't recall anything in elementary school about God paying taxes.
> In which classes would I have learned about God paying taxes?

>> >> Why would HE be immune? Render unto Caesar and all that.

>> >>(Honestly, it's like you've never even TRIED to think about a lot of
>> >>the stuff
>> >>you should have learned in elementary school.)

>> >I don't recall anything in elementary school about God paying taxes.
>> >In which classes would I have learned about God paying taxes?

>> ...you learned about God, presumably, and you learned about taxes. That
>> you
>> never thought to combine the two until, presumably, 30 or so years later
>> is
>> not OUR fault. That you then IMMEDIATELY broadcast this lack to all and
>> sundry, with a puzzled "Why should I ever have done this? You can't
>> expect
>> me to have made CONNECTIONS, given my past history!" air, is DEFINITELY
>> not
>> our fault.

> I had assumed that God, being the Supreme Being of the Universe, would
> not be subject to taxes.  After all, He isn't a regular human
> inhabitant of any nation on Earth, so isn't subject to the tax laws of
> any nation on Earth.

> How would you go about enforcing our tax laws against God in any case?

> IIRC, Jesus once told people to "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's
> (taxes) and render onto God what is God's", implying that taxes are
> separate from God.